How Podcast Algorithms and Gen Z Shape the Audio Industry

Brett Johnson [: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Circle Sessions featuring the Circle of Experts. Each week one of the Circle of Experts joins me to talk about critical aspects of growing your podcast. The Circle of Experts are Yasmine Robles and Izzy Dadosky from Rebel Marketing, Tonnisha English, Amamoo of TJE Communications and Don The Idea Guy. I'm Brett Johnson, My Podcast Guy from Circle 270 Media Podcast Consultants. This week Don The Idea Guy is here. He possesses creative powers beyond those of mere mortals. Don The Idea Guy rescues those in need of innovative ideas through his brainstorming Sessions. You can find out more dontheideaguy.com Don, thanks for joining me today.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:00:41

Hey, how are you my friend?

Brett Johnson [: 00:00:42

I'm doing great, doing great. You know, this time around we are looking at our news articles to talk about. We have a lot of them that are good news bad news mixture which.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:00:51

Is kind of odd like good news.

Brett Johnson [: 00:00:54

Bad news maybe a mixture of heavier on bad maybe. And then. But there's like the other title after it as well too. But in the past we've talked about Audacy which has been a very radio focused company, but this is, you know, a couple of months old but it's still worthy of talk because Audacy bought a podcast studio called Pineapple Street Studios which was cranking out some really great podcasts. I mean these podcasts were award winning. They were being looked at by, you know, the Netflixes of the world and that sort of thing, what they were coming out with. And they end up shutting them down because Audacy can't run their company properly. So it's, it's, it's one of those, you know, killing more award winning production companies.

Brett Johnson [: 00:01:43

It's just like wow, everything they touch seems to die on the vine.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:01:48

Do you know Pineapple die on the vine? Do you know can. Do you know any of the, the programs produced by Pineapple?

Brett Johnson [: 00:01:58

No, I can't off the top of my head. And that was bad. I'm bad on my part because I, I did when I put this story up and I cannot remember, I just.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:02:04

Wondered, I, because I rarely know what studios things come out of. So quite possibly I, I know a show but I, I don't know the producer.

Brett Johnson [: 00:02:12

Right, exactly.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:02:13

But so obviously you're a bad news first kind of guy. Like you cover the closures and everybody who lost their jobs.

Brett Johnson [: 00:02:20

Well, okay, so here's some stuff that's going on. So Pineapple shows for TV networks included official podcast for HBO and HBO Max and Just like that, Chernobyl, Dune Prophecy hacks, House of the Dragon, the Last of us. It had all the hits. I love this one. Missing Richard Simmons. Have you ever heard this? It was so.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:02:40

I heard of all the other ones.

Brett Johnson [: 00:02:42

Oh, my God, it's so good. So again, coming up with some great stuff and just like, let's just kill it because, yeah, we don't know what we're doing.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:02:52

Well, they're in scramble mode. The fact that Audacy still continues to get positive press about, oh, look at what these guys are doing. I'm like, these guys are putting themselves out of business. Like, you're barely hanging on you, you. It could absolutely be. It could have been a case of restructuring, but at this point, you're cutting. You're cutting off healthy limbs. You're cutting off healthy limbs.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:03:17

The patient is going to die.

Brett Johnson [: 00:03:20

Exactly, exactly. Just it looked as though at the moment they had money to spend. Let's buy this. Let's buy this because we're gonna, you know, we can do it. And had no clue what they were doing.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:03:29

Well, and then they also. I see the, the article link that they just acquired a podcast discovery app called Moonbeam. Think about how those guys feel too. Because it was probably a little up and comer, you know, doing what they can to grow this audience to the point that it had value, that Audacy wanted to acquire it. And they're probably all excited, like, oh, man, we're gonna have so much exposure to all these other one. It's gonna be the new Iheart app and. Nope, sorry, guys.

Brett Johnson [: 00:03:58

Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, you. Luckily you got your money. It's in the bank. You know, it's done. It's done. Yeah, just. It's mind blowing, mind boggling, honestly, that just when you have something that good, you're killing the goose. You're killing the goose.

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:13

No golden eggs. Just, just let Pineapple street do what they do. Keep your fingers out of it. And it's a process. It's slow to produce these really great podcasts. You're going to put some money into them, but you get notoriety and you get these TV deals out of it. That's kind of the goal at that point in time.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:04:30

And I don't know what the rules are on the filing for bankruptcy, but could they have spun it out, you know, into its own entity? You know, it's.

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:38

I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, exactly, exactly. From the story I read and I don't have any insider information on what's going on, but I don't know. That's a good point.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:04:45

That would have taken it off their Bottom line too, they're making all these cuts so they don't have these expense. But they're gonna lose. They're not just cutting expenses, they're gonna lose the profits they had from the advertising.

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:04:57

Anyway, it's a radio, radio state of mind.

Brett Johnson [: 00:05:00

It is quite frankly. Yeah. It's. It's just that stay in your lane, do what you don't really think you know what you're doing, but don't quit. Quit messing around with other mediums. Exactly.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:05:09

Yeah. It would be interesting to go back and look and see if their C level guys still got their bonuses this year.

Brett Johnson [: 00:05:15

Yeah, yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:05:16

Oh, you know that because I'm gonna say they did.

Brett Johnson [: 00:05:18

Yeah, probably so. Probably so. Yeah. There was a recent vidcon session I did not attend, but I got the news article from called YouTube Decoded. Quite frankly, the. The what was recommended. How the recommend the recommendation algorithms work wasn't a big surprise. I don't know how it really made news, but I think everybody thinks that it's the oft theorized about recommendation algorithms aren't specifically pointed at the videos or the creators, but they're at the viewer, which kind of makes sense.

Brett Johnson [: 00:05:51

But I think it kind of got turned around. It's like, oh, the algorithms work for the creator because the creator is so big and they're creating so much stuff. It's like, no, it's the user being fed what they kind of want. It's. And again, it's a good bad. It's a good bad. Like you, you brought up.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:06:05

It's a. It's a user being fed what the algorithm thinks you want. I mean I get fed plenty of things that I'm like, I. It's like being shown an ad on the retargeting campaigns for let's say I bought a baby get a baby shower gift for a co worker and now they think I'm shopping for baby stuff and I can't get away from the baby cribs and the strollers and the toys and I don't want it, I don't want it. I can't opt out of it. So the fact that you fed me a video, that maybe I was researching something, maybe it came up as a recommendation and the topic was deceiving and I looked at it and went, not for me. But now you're going to feed that to me all the time. The problem with social media, every platform has been they literally have a mechanism for you to say, yes, I want to follow this, I want more of this.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:06:59

But Instead of feeding you that, the, the leave it to an algorithm to decide what you want to see based on the things you watch. And it made a lot of money for TikTok. It enabled TikTok to increase their viewership and everybody went, we need to do that too. So Facebook switched over to. They were the first ones to do it. Twitter X does it. And YouTube obviously is doing it now. And the downside is you're not showing me the things I literally told you I wanted to see.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:07:29

You know, there are plenty of YouTube accounts that I follow and I say give me alerts when these guys go live. Give me alerts when they post something new and their alerts don't work. I don't get them, I don't get them. But you're going to feed me a bunch of nonsense stuff that I never asked to see and that's the stuff you give me over and over again. So from a user, I think that's frustrating. Now from the content creator, you know, this is where we go, bad news, good news. There are going to be a lot of content creators that would not have been found otherwise because of all the big boys that are out there dominating audience. And now if you can find a way to link what you're producing to the same kind of content, same kind of message, if you can get that algo algorithmic link connection now, they're going to show your stuff.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:08:18

So even if you don't have followers, you could still get found. Now, I don't know the trick to making sure that you're in alignment.

Brett Johnson [: 00:08:25

Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:08:25

On those algorithms. But the opportunity is there, right?

Brett Johnson [: 00:08:28

Yeah, exactly. Because I was, this is a Facebook situation. I was on the reels, watching some reels, all of a sudden a and I'm I like playing pool, billiards. But one showed up. It's like, oh, you know, it's how to it was the instructional type of thing on how to handle this type of shot. It's like, well, that's cool. I played it through. Oh my gosh, I'm getting fed every instructional, which is fine for a while, but after a while I was like, I don't play that much.

Brett Johnson [: 00:08:53

I didn't ask for this necessarily, but boy, did the algo love me that day. It was feeding me the same person, but then another guy. And then, you know, if I swipe too fast, like, well, we got to feed you a different type of person then.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:09:06

Yep. I, I the worst, the most egregious miss for me is I watched the YouTube rebroadcast of late Night with Seth Meyers and John Oliver and Daily Show. I watch those clips. I watch the shorts. I, I what? They crack me up. I'm watching them because they're funny.

Brett Johnson [: 00:09:29

Yeah. Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:09:30

Are there political leanings that I identify more with in their bright. Yes, yes. But I'm watching them because they're funny. Instead of showing me more comedy, the algorithm decides that I need to see more political pieces. So I get shown all these 15 minute recaps of some news broadcast by a fake news company that only exists on YouTube that I've, I've never watched. I don't know any of the people. They're definitely not funny and, but it fills the feedback. It takes so much work to scroll past and get rid of them.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:10:03

That it for me. I abandoned the platform.

Brett Johnson [: 00:10:07

Yeah. And I think there's an abandonment time period here. I really do. It's like, well, if you, if you're not on it for a day, it kind of resets itself. It seems like maybe, I don't know.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:10:17

Your mileage may vary.

Brett Johnson [: 00:10:18

Maybe. Exactly. I don't know. I, but I, I have a sense that it kind of slows down a little bit. But hey, who knows? I'm not where I'll go.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:10:27

It's still not right. And no, hey, how about just show me the things I said I wanted.

Brett Johnson [: 00:10:32

And, and that's been the frustrating part of working with podcasters and some clients that I've got too is that, you know, we're, we're trying to push out content and ask for follows on Facebook wherever it might be. Social media and you know that X amount of percentage is being fed on time or within, within that, even within a, a few hours, it's not being fed. So you really can't announce, hey, a new episode. And we don't do the hey, new episode. We do talk about a new episode. It's the, the importance of it. Something's happened. It's, it's a great interview, you know, really justifying the, the hit, but it's like it's not going to show up.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:11:09

For at least the podcast recording is, you can time shift. You know, people may not listen to it at real time anyway, but if you're doing a live broadcast and you want live participation, social media is a terrible way to do it. You know, we've said from the very beginning you need an email list. You get to control when you send out the email. For the most part, they are deliverable within 95% as long as it's a subscriber and you've got a good reputation as a sender. Social media is not left there to ratchet back. Will you end up in a, in a spam folder from time to time? Yes. Will Google send you to the promotions tab occasionally? Yes.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:11:47

But at least you're getting to the inbox. That is your greatest asset. Make them sign up for your list. Get them to sign up for your list. That's how you're going to be able to alert people to pay attention to your content when it goes out. Do not rely on an algorithm. Do not rely on follows.

Brett Johnson [: 00:12:01

Yeah, exactly. Another good, bad story. And we're going to spin this, and this is apolitical of anything. Is NPR and PBS losing their, you know, federal money? Yeah, and, and, and, and both Don and I are big public radio, public television supporters. I mean I, I cut my teeth in public radio in college. I love public, still listen to public radio today, catch PBS occasionally. I'm just not a big TV watcher. But I, I, I understand the cuts.

Brett Johnson [: 00:12:29

I, I get it, I understand and it was been promised for decades and, and the president finally said, yes, it's going to happen. I see it as an opportunity though. I'm going to specifically talk about npr and I'll let you chime in that in podcasting we're talking about the increase of the awareness and the importance of a value for value model in that create something that somebody once so badly that they'll pay for it over and over and over again every month. I think NPR has an opportunity to really crank up the bar because they already have the model of donations. Right Port. So now crank it up. You don't have regulations on top of you because you've lost the federal funding. Start really doing it.

Brett Johnson [: 00:13:15

Start creating stuff. Not that they aren't already, but really start creating stuff that is can't miss radio, can't miss audio. And you're doing it already. It's just take it to the next step because you're in the situation to be leaders. They've been leaders in a lot of stuff.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:13:32

Yeah, they, they are. At one time they were the trendsetters. Right. They, you'd experiment with things on there and then it would catch on because you do have people who are at the early stages of discovery and production. I was, I was always a big fan.

Brett Johnson [: 00:13:48

They're used to long form programming.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:13:50

Yep.

Brett Johnson [: 00:13:50

They're used to it. Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:13:53

Yeah. It's as you said, I'm a huge fan of public broadcasting, the tv. I grew up, I grew up on Sesame Street. I grew up on Electric Company, grew up with Mr. Rogers. As I got older, I got into mystery, like. And then I loved the McLaughlin Group. I don't know if you remember.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:14:12

Most people won't remember that. I'm sure there are YouTube clips. Go watch. Was Bill Maher before Bill Maher?

Brett Johnson [: 00:14:20

Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:14:20

I mean it. And it was way more knowledgeable. Yeah. A lot more intelligent people playing that game.

Brett Johnson [: 00:14:28

That tension of it as well. It was just good. It was good. Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:14:32

So I think that it was always kind of this undiscovered treasure anyway. But as a kid growing up, my family did not have a lot, so we weren't subscribing to cable. We still had the regular channels. And man, I got so much value and just basic love of reading and that kind of stuff from pbs. And then you get older and it's npr. If you're listening to this, it's because you're a podcaster, you like podcasts. Podcasts would not be as popular as they are if it weren't for the NPR podcasts.

Brett Johnson [: 00:15:02

Right.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:15:02

Those were the ones that jumped from one category to another. They went into the mainstream with their coverage on storytelling.

Brett Johnson [: 00:15:13

Yeah. Go look at a top 25 list of whose ever listed is for podcasts and you're going to see probably five to six, maybe seven of them being NPR affiliated. Affiliated or public radio or, you know, pri. It's. That's the way it is. Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:15:28

All these true crime podcasts would not have happened without NPR doing their investigative reporting. It's just we owe so much to what they, what they do. It's a shame that the 1% that the government was donating, they don't, they don't want to contribute to it anymore. It does the public good, you know, And I know that Netflix is supposedly taking on Sesame street and they'll have Sesame street on there. But the great thing about PBS was that anybody at any financial level could tune into PBS and watch it for free. And now you're gonna have to have a subscription. You know, I hope they do something to, to continue making that accessible for people who maybe don't have the money to, to pay for a, a subscription at Netflix. PBR.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:16:15

PBR, PBS. PBRs for after the show. PBS was great. NPR fantastic. I mean, I love NPR. There are so many programs I listen to. I'm a huge Hawaii buff. And most of the NPR programs I coming out of hbr, Hawaiian Public Radio.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:16:36

And that's where I made my contribution because I wanted to support the content, as you said, value for value. I want to support the content that gives me value. And I hope they're able to continue doing what they're doing. I know that early on, when they knew the government was going to be taking away future contributions and funding, they seem to go, okay, it's great. We, you know, a very small percentage of the overall budget that we get. We're, you know, we're gonna have to tighten our belt, but we're still going to be able to make it happen. But then, unfortunately, the, the newly announced clawbacks make life difficult. Imagine if you, your boss called you a month after a month of paychecks and said, yeah, I'm sorry, we're gonna have to let you go and there's not gonna be any more paychecks for you.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:17:26

And you go, wow, that's horrible. I'm gonna have to go find another job, but I'll get, I'll get money. And then he goes, and we're going to take all the money we paid you last month, too. Yeah, the money's gone. It's spent. It was budgeted.

Brett Johnson [: 00:17:37

Right.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:17:38

And now they want to claw that back. I just, it drives me crazy. It's so frustrating.

Brett Johnson [: 00:17:44

Yeah, it is. It is. So like I said, it's a good. Bad. Ultimately, I feel for. Specifically, we'll talk npr, but I, I'm excited for them. Quite frankly, though, I just see this. You're unshackled by regulations that you have to only say your sponsorships a certain way.

Brett Johnson [: 00:18:02

And I'm not meaning NPR go sound like a commercial radio station or, or. I don't mean that. I think they're still going to hold to very little sponsorship but encouragement. I mean, even, even to the point when they do a news coverage story, they out in the front of it says, say we're doing a news story about, let's, let's say intel. I don't know. Anyway, and they say right out front, intel is a supporter of npr.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:18:29

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:18:29

They tell you right away that, okay, we're going to do a news story. They support us. Whatever lens you want to look at and listen to this story. We, at least we told you up front, I don't think it's going to go away. I really don't. And I, and I don't think support for NPR is going to go away. It probably will increase because of people being scared. Now I feel bad for the very.

Brett Johnson [: 00:18:49

An HPR might be the. In the same. I think it is actually in the same scenario that a lot of funding is going to go away. Like over 50, 60% of the small public radio stations funding is going to go away because of the cuts.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:19:02

Well, HPR was one of the groups that came out and said that they weren't worried about the future.

Brett Johnson [: 00:19:07

Okay.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:19:08

That they, that it was a small percent. I don't think it was 1%, but it may have been 10.

Brett Johnson [: 00:19:13

I saw some stations up in the 40s. 50.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:19:15

Really? Yeah, they definitely weren't in that boat. At least that's not what they said early on. But I know when they started talking about the clawbacks, they did start saying, hey, we need your support now more than ever. And I think that's because they have to recoup the money they've already spent too. I think that it is an opportunity. I think every problem is an opportunity, really. I mean as a creative. Yeah, every.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:19:36

You got to look at every problem as an opportunity. And I think there are a lot of things that NPR and PBS could do, not just from the fundraising but, but from the support side. Most people made their contributions. Now they didn't do it for this or they supported the content so they made their donations. But part of that support came from, oh, I get a tote bag, oh, I get a hat, oh, I get a shirt. And there's very little beyond the reward for a donation merch wise on an, on an NPR website. Like there's very little that you can buy outright. There might be one or two shirts, but there's an opportunity there for a whole store and why you need a whole merchandise section.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:20:27

All the things that I can buy without making the donation because I'll buy more of the more of those donation you're going to get from me once a year, you know, maybe I'll renew my membership or I up my, my membership. But T shirts, coffee mugs, I buy them for me, I buy them from, for other people. You need to really crank up the merch machine and I think that they, they would see a lot of funding for that. David Letterman is still selling Late Night with David Letterman shirts and mugs on his website because that shows you made.

Brett Johnson [: 00:20:59

It cool and it's cool to wear that stuff. Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah. Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:21:05

So yeah, absolutely an opportunity. But I, I don't necessarily think the opportunity is going to come from the broadcasting content side. I think it's going to come from the other more lot. Why don't we have live events that are NPR event kind of the old school. They NPR could be your local radio station again, whereas all the local ones are now franchise they could be your local station again, the one that you, you feel that has your heart.

Brett Johnson [: 00:21:30

Yeah, agree. Agree. Yeah. So I, I think they'll be okay. It's gonna hurt the next couple years. Totally. I get that. I totally.

Brett Johnson [: 00:21:37

It may be a little bit of a different sound possibly, but I, I think they'll come out of it okay. I really do because I. They have some. They have a lot of smart people working at the NPR and pbs. They really do. They. I think they have the most forward thinking people in broadcasting, honest.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:22:00

I'm sitting there talking about the, the merch and the donation that I made to HPR and I'm looking right at my HBR hat that I got for my donation. Like, you couldn't buy this hat. You couldn't buy this hat without the donation. And I would have absolutely bought this hat a year ago.

Brett Johnson [: 00:22:17

Right, right, exactly. No, that's a cool looking hat. You've got to create something that looks cool, give a little weight. Bet you bet. Yeah. You had come up with. You found earlier a couple of weeks ago this E marketer quiz.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:22:31

Talk about it. Yeah. So I'm a huge fan of emarketer and certainly they produce the newsletters and there's a subscription level but there's also a free level that you can just get a daily update. One of the things they send out is a quiz and they'll ask you a trivia question about marketing. And the one from earlier in July was a true false question. It said true or false. More than 80% of U.S. agency and brand side advertisers are advertising on podcasts.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:23:00

More than 80%. That's a huge number. And the response to that was false, but it was close because the actual number was 78%. So is it 80%? No, it's only 78% and I look at that and go man, has my. How times have changed. Almost 80% of US agencies and the brand, the brand themselves, their advertising departments are investing in podcast advertising.

Brett Johnson [: 00:23:31

Wow, that's mind boggling if you think about it. How, how quickly that and and after that in as well that how low a percentage of. Of podcasters that actually accept advertising.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:23:45

Oh really? What do you know what that number is?

Brett Johnson [: 00:23:48

I. I hear from the industry maybe 30 to 40% of all the podcasts.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:23:53

Or 30, 40 take advertising.

Brett Johnson [: 00:23:55

Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:23:55

Except every. Wow.

Brett Johnson [: 00:23:56

Most are doing it for themselves, you know, a branding opportunity.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:24:02

Now are these smaller groups that maybe advertisers an agency wouldn't buy anyway.

Brett Johnson [: 00:24:06

Probably. And that's okay, you know, but so you've Got this X amount of spots that can actually be purchased, you know, in about. In a podcast, you know that it doesn't start turning you off.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:24:19

Yeah, it's.

Brett Johnson [: 00:24:20

It's wild.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:24:22

It went from when. It went from a point where agencies at buying at that level had no interest in podcasts.

Brett Johnson [: 00:24:29

Right.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:24:29

It's like they used to have no interest in digital, and then all of a sudden they're the biggest spenders. Now there's a lot of problems that come along with that because they will beat you down to the lowest rate ever. And they want to buy everybody in bulk. Programmatic stuff. But if you can say, yeah, these gigantic brands and gigantic agencies are buying podcast advertising at those levels, boy, as a smaller podcaster who wants advertising? It opens the door for you to go in and go, you want to be like the big boys. 78% of the big boys are buying podcast advertising. Hey, I know you're not Papa John's and you're not going to buy a billion, a million dollars in podcast advertising, but you're my neighborhood pizza shop and I put together a podcast about business in our neighborhood. You guys should absolutely be spending some money on my podcast.

Brett Johnson [: 00:25:19

And, and I haven't done the research into this, but we've talked about this before, is that luring an advertiser to your podcast may be more than just a spot or 30 seconds or 60 seconds in your podcast. There are other things you can do as a podcaster to support that money coming in. You have an email newsletter. You have a huge social media fan fan base. Lots of other ways to get exposure.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:25:46

Yeah, the feature and the sponsorship. The hardest thing to sell is an ad.

Brett Johnson [: 00:25:52

Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:25:52

The easiest thing to sell is a partnership that they feel like they're part of. They felt that they help you create the feature inside the show where you spotlight them rather than just an ad running. You know, we did a thing on the radio where we had a this day in music history and that was. That was not. Was sponsored by a record shop. The record shop would not have just bought ads, but they loved being a part of this music history feature. And yes, ultimately it is advertising, but it's more marketing than advertising. So, yeah, don't just go out and try and pitch ads.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:26:28

We've always talked about that. Come up with a feature, come up with a sponsorship, the. The promotional aspect and definitely go in with it with knowing what return on investment you're going to bring to them, not how much money they're going to spend with you. What are you going to bring to Them because they don't have money to spend with you. But boy, do they have room for more business on Wednesday nights if you can get more orders in on Wednesdays.

Brett Johnson [: 00:26:52

Right. Well, and, and you know, this, this one of the key findings that you note here is talking about specifically podcast ad conversions. So, you know, this whole study is just done on, on, on the ads themselves. We're not, they haven't even researched the extra stuff that's going on for the sponsorships if it's happening. So let's say it's trust ads and.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:27:12

This is the lowest rate ads like this. Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:27:15

So if it's, if it's, if really it's only being ad buys and you're offering more, you've already differentiated yourself.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:27:23

Yep.

Brett Johnson [: 00:27:24

It's like I'm a campaign, not just an ad buy.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:27:27

And the nice thing about them at this level that we're talking about, the agency level, the nice thing about having the number that high is that the industry still says that most brands are still under investing in podcasting, so they think 78 is low. And I think it's amazing because they didn't just print more money. That came from other budgets, as we joked, pre show, probably radio, but it probably came from print too, and probably a little bit came from digital because it's new and it's hot and the conversions are higher and that's going to be the, the next article there. But just opportunity, baby.

Brett Johnson [: 00:28:07

Yeah. I can give you a real life example and I won't name any names because I don't, you know, he wouldn't want me to say that, but we, we had a, I have a studio here in, in Columbus, Ohio that we rent out. And this gentleman does a podcast talking to specifically businesses that do heavy, heavy item logistics. You know, the big things you see rolling down the highway. Big items. Okay, so you think, oh my gosh, what a boring podcast. But what he did, he used to own a magazine that, that did sold ads to this industry. So that was the mouthpiece for the industry.

Brett Johnson [: 00:28:44

He sold that magazine, got bored, decided, you know, I already have these contacts. I want to, I want to stay in the industry after 10 years. I know these people creates a podcast. He, he's getting thousands of dollars dropped on him to do this podcast about logistics. Wow. The narrower the niche, the money's in the niche.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:29:05

That, that is absolutely true. And I will, I will say niche. I don't care. I don't care. I don't care who knows it. I know it's supposed to be niche.

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:12

The, the reaches are in the niches, you know.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:29:15

Right. Santa doesn't work that way. Riches are in the niches.

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:18

Right, exactly. But, you know, I, I loved hearing that story because it just solidified real world that. Yes. You think you only 500 people are listening. You think only 500 are listening to your podcast. You got 500 that are worth something to somebody.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:29:33

Oh, yeah. Even more because they're specialized.

Brett Johnson [: 00:29:37

Specialized. And you're the opportunity to get to reach them on a weekly whatever The. If it's a series, it doesn't matter. You're a marketing partner for them that they want to. Well, in fact, he pulled one advertiser from the magazine he had just sold, went to him, you know, offered a sponsorship. Yeah. Why would I want to put a bunch all my ad. An ad in a magazine that has all my computers competitors in it.

Brett Johnson [: 00:30:01

I'll spend with you as a solo.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:30:03

Especially if you have the. On if you have some of the audience that he wants.

Brett Johnson [: 00:30:05

And yeah, the guy has a reputation of doing. He did a great podcast interview and it did exactly what it was supposed to do. So don't, don't doubt what you're doing. Even though you think it's a small audience.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:30:18

It doesn't matter if you've got an audience of five people and it's the right five people.

Brett Johnson [: 00:30:23

Yeah, exactly. Well, and speaking of not necessarily five people, but, you know, let's target it on. You found an article about, you know, Gen Z media consumption. This is amazing.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:30:33

Yeah. This is an audience that everybody's chasing. Right. It's the new. It's the new one with the spending. So every generation, at some point, they flip from the previous one to marketing directly to the new one because they, they got their first paychecks.

Brett Johnson [: 00:30:48

Right.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:30:48

And Gen Z first. First. Let me say this article shares a stat that I thought was impressive, and that was 44% of the general population. So that's any generation, 44% of them are at least somewhat influenced by podcast ads. Now, it doesn't say they heard the ad and they ran right out and bought it, but at some level they were influenced by a podcast ad. That's awesome.

Brett Johnson [: 00:31:21

Four out of ten people.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:31:23

Brett, what's the. What is the most recent stat you have on the percentage of people who are podcast listeners? The last thing I heard was 50%.

Brett Johnson [: 00:31:34

Maybe now creeping into at least general awareness. One podcast listen per week. I think it's in the 67 range. So, you know, we are. It's creeping up. I don't think it's Saturation yet. People are not talking. We're at that saturation point.

Brett Johnson [: 00:31:48

Point yet. In regards to. Well, it can't go any higher. It can. So.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:31:51

So let's say, let's say 60% just to be on the low.

Brett Johnson [: 00:31:55

Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:31:56

Of the new increase, 60 of the population is listening to a podcast. 44 of them are influenced by it. You don't get stats like that with any audience on any platform. I know, it's awesome.

Brett Johnson [: 00:32:09

Pick the right podcast to be a part of and people are going to be talking about you.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:32:14

So now here's the Gen Z thing. So this came out of a Gen Z media consumption study, and it talks about how podcasts are reshaping their attention and the influence that podcasts, the influence and impact that podcasts have on Gen Z specifically. So it says the big takeaway for me and there's a ton of stuff in there, but Gen Z is the. Is more influenced than any other generation by ads played during podcast. So now we're back to talking about the lowest form of marketing in a podcast. Ads that people skip. I skip ads. You play your ad and I know it's 30 seconds long.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:32:56

I'm skipping once. If it's 60, I'm hitting it twice. Talking to you, Daily Hustle. So we're not talking about the best practices of embedding your marketers content and mentions inside of your content. Creating that feature that we discussed just seconds ago about creating a feature that could spotlight somebody. So it's content. This is an ad. And they're influenced by ads more than anybody else.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:33:27

And maybe it's because they're not as jaded towards them. Maybe it's because the sponsorship of the fact they're advertising on a program they're passionate about. We always found that to be true in radio. That boy radio listeners were loyal to the advertisers who brought them their content. That was never more apparent to me than when the station I was working for ended up going off the air. People still went and supported because they brought them the last months of being on, you know, being able to broadcast. So, man, what a great statistic.

Brett Johnson [: 00:33:58

I know. Yeah. Well, and, and I think a really good example of ads done well, I think by Gen Zers. For Gen Zers. If you listen to Morning Brew podcast. Yeah, I think you got a couple of Gen Zers that just. Yeah, I can relate to them. It's just they're a little goofy at times, but they have fun and they're just dropping in.

Brett Johnson [: 00:34:19

I don't know, just common stuff. That they're doing just off the wall type of comments to their ads, but you listen to them because you just kind of want to go how, how goofy they're going to be.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:34:31

Yeah, they, and they are goofy to the point of I can't listen to their podcast every day even though they do produce like three of them a day because they're so goofy. But we were talking about YouTube shorts before. They do a YouTube short. That's a silly. It's like an SNL skit based on their top news coverage that day, their headline. It's very engaging and entertaining and I think it's because they're producing ads that are more like content than just ads.

Brett Johnson [: 00:34:59

Right?

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:34:59

So yeah, again you're talking about influenced by ads. I can't tell you the last time I was influenced by an ad. I'm so jaded from working in the industry. So that is so exciting from, from that standpoint.

Brett Johnson [: 00:35:12

It's funny you bring that out because you and I probably sit in, in that same kind of chair that going, okay, we, it makes us cringe listening to ads and watching ads.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:35:23

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:35:23

Because we deal with them all of our life. In our previous lives we've seen how.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:35:28

The ad sausage is made.

Brett Johnson [: 00:35:30

We do and, and how the creativity is just sucked out of it because the advertiser wants this, this, this, this and this in it. And it's, it's hard enough to tell them no, no phone number, it doesn't matter anymore. It's got to be website, you know, and the creativity is just not there. They have to have the roi or so they say. So. Or an ad agency is just mailing it in saying, yeah, let's just do this, let's just do this.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:35:55

So I can only give you X amount of cost per put point. We don't care what we're going to advertise. We're not going to do a custom ad for your format. You're going to run the same ad on your country station that we're running on the hip hop station.

Brett Johnson [: 00:36:06

Right, exactly. So it's, we're a little jaded in, in that regard. So when this type of information comes out, there's, there's that second hope.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:36:15

Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:36:15

That okay. Ads can make a difference. And the Morning Brew I think is one example. You do it in the way that talks to, to that generation, to that Gen Z and us being Gen Xers doesn't hit the mark necessarily. The product doesn't hit the mark necessarily. But it certainly is interesting to see what they're doing. And understand. Okay, I get it.

Brett Johnson [: 00:36:36

I get what you're trying to do. I'll live with that.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:36:38

I mean, you're. You're basically getting the ad influence that, that the industry used to have on boomers. I mean, baby boomers were very heavily influenced by advertising. It was, it was new. Ish. Um, the, the fact that it's history repeating itself, it's just very interesting to me. And it'll be interesting to watch as they age up. I would have thought they'd been even more cynical about.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:37:06

About that. And the fact they're open to it and being influenced and impacted by advertising is awesome.

Brett Johnson [: 00:37:12

Well, and it. It's got to be the product or service that's being advertised. I can't, off the top of my head, think of what it has to.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:37:17

Be a good alignment. It has to be in good alignment.

Brett Johnson [: 00:37:19

It. Right, it does. And I think that's why it doesn't hit me, because it's not really in alignment with what I'm dealing with in my world, but it definitely has to be. I'm going to pay a little bit more attention to the ads now because I know what they're doing. It's just I wasn't paying attention to what they're advertising.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:37:33

Yeah. You're not in their demo for the home delivery of Matcha, right?

Brett Johnson [: 00:37:37

No, exactly, exactly. Not even close to it. Or some app on a phone that's gonna help me budget.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:37:44

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:37:44

And I'm not there. I'm not there. But boy, Gen Z is. That's for sure. Yeah, Very cool.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:37:50

Love. I loved ending on that. Those two bits of high notes about the advertising and podcast industry right now. That's. It's looking great, guys.

Brett Johnson [: 00:37:58

It's looking great, exciting. It really, really is. You know, just from, you know, on my personal level of doing what I'm doing with my clients, it's. They're still excited about doing podcasting. I get it. And, and then just that when the ones that are exiting, they're exiting from for a reason. And it's not because it's not working. It's because they're kind of.

Brett Johnson [: 00:38:15

They're run out of content. Possibly they need to take a break. Yes. Yeah, you're right. You should. TV shows are in seasons.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:38:23

Yep.

Brett Johnson [: 00:38:24

Why you do that? Take a break and move on and come back. I know you will, you know, sort of thing. And we'll work with you then. So. Yeah. So we have a ton of stuff people could comment on. What's a. What's a great way to, you know, get with you.

Brett Johnson [: 00:38:36

Well, I don't agree with you at all. Npr, pbs.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:38:39

Don, you're welcome to disagree with me on any of the social media platforms. Everybody else does. You should feel. You should feel free to do so as well. You can find me as Don the idea guy pretty much everywhere.

Brett Johnson [: 00:38:53

Gotcha. Yeah. And. And me, I, you know, I'm gonna respond probably best on LinkedIn. Hit me on LinkedIn. And then, you know, I'm on the. On the web with my own website too, as well.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:39:01

Because he is not a Gen Z.

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:03

I'm not a Gen Z or. Exactly. I'm an old. I'm an old. I'm an old.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:39:07

Not on the Tick Tocks. You're not on the Tick Tocks. Red. No.

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:10

No, no, no, no. I thought maybe Blue sky might be a great X alternative.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:39:19

No, it's just the usage isn't there. Are you. Do you have a Tick Tock account, Brett?

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:25

I don't. No.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:39:26

Okay, so I have an account. I can. I can go in and watch, I can go and interact, but I have not produced a Tick Tock video.

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:34

Yeah, no, I just. I just. I have been on it enough that it became too addictive.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:39:40

Oh, really? Yeah, man. It chased me away. Like, how do people sit here and watch this for this long?

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:46

No, no, I decide. No, I can't do this. I'm. I. I can't lose an hour before I know it.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:39:52

Short attention span theater. Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:39:54

Big time. Big time. Yeah. But, yeah. Circle270Media.com is a great place to get a hold of me too.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:39:59

Oh, yeah, you should find Brett. Yeah. Go look for Brett out there. Circle270Media.com Exactly. Exactly. With all the Circle of friends and Experts.

Brett Johnson [: 00:40:09

And Experts here in the Circle Circle Sessions. Here we go. Yes. I need that B PBR now. Exactly. Wait a minute. So before we leave, let's give a. I need you a coffee recommendation and a beer recommendation from you.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:40:25

What's this?

Brett Johnson [: 00:40:25

Yeah, I need a coffee and a beer recommendation. You're doing the beer and the coffee, right? Yeah, always.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:40:31

Yeah, sure. So, coffee.

Brett Johnson [: 00:40:35

Have you done anything good recently?

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:40:37

Yeah. So, Kona. I accept those substitutes. Kona coffee is amazing. And since our government is angering every other. Every other foreign producer of coffee, it's the only coffee produced in the United States, and it is the best coffee ever. So that. But on.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:40:58

On a different note, if you don't want to go that snooty about it, I'm really loving and I'm gonna totally draw a blank Bones coffee. I'm in love with bones. Coffee now.

Brett Johnson [: 00:41:07

Yeah. Okay.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:41:09

They have fantastic, like, if you like the flavored coffees. Like, my wife loves the Cinnabon flavored stuff. They have a pineapple coffee that really. I really. I was. I got it because it was pineapple and I love the tiki stuff, but I'm. I'm probably not gonna like this, but I'll get it. Just because it was as if you had sweetened your coffee with a little bit of pineapple juice.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:41:32

So you still got all the coffee. And I use coconut creamer, so it was like a coffee daiquiri. It was awesome. I loved it.

Brett Johnson [: 00:41:39

That's cool. I'm not offering any. I just needed some records.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:41:43

Beer.

Brett Johnson [: 00:41:44

Yeah.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:41:45

I haven't had any awesome beers lately, but I did discover a website called Tip Top Cocktails. And I'm not sure that's the dot com, but just Google Tip Top. Tip Top Cocktails. Their cocktails come canned about a half this size here. And if you take them, put them in a shit, pour it into a shaker, add ice, and shake it like a regular cocktail and pour it into a cocktail glass, it tastes like you picked it up at your local speakeasy. They are delicious. The blend, it's a legit cocktail with really good ingredients. I've had the Mai Tai and Jungle Bird, which are obviously two tiki drinks.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:42:30

They're fantastic. So when I can't get to the tiki bar, I've got that right here in the house.

Brett Johnson [: 00:42:35

Ready to go.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:42:36

That's ready to go, man.

Brett Johnson [: 00:42:37

You've been said for summer, then. That's good. Good. Hey, well, thanks for joining me again. Appreciate it.

Don The Idea Guy [: 00:42:42

We'll see you soon.