Why Strategy Matters in Podcast Branding and Growth

Brett Johnson [: 00:00:01

Welcome to the Circle Sessions featuring the Circle of Experts. Each week, one of the Circle of Experts joins me to talk about critical aspects of growing your podcast. The Circle of Experts are Yasmine Robles and Izzy Dadosky from Rebel Marketing, Tonnisha English Amamoo of TJE Communications, and Don The Idea Guy. I'm Brett Johnson, My Podcast Guy from Circle 270 Media Podcast Consultants. This week, Tonnisha is here. Tonnisha's on a mission to help small businesses level the playing field through her digital marketing solutions. Tonnisha, thanks for joining me again today.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:00:35

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Brett Johnson [: 00:00:37

Yeah. So I've you know, I I usually ask you, what do you wanna talk about? But we we had this long discussion before we, got into this episode. And I I wanted to, this this idea of podcast branding versus podcast promotion has been really kicking around in my head. Mhmm. And I wanted to throw this as a a topic with you as, you know, basically calling it breaking down the success of podcast branding. Yeah. We we we always talk about successful podcasts.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:01:04

Mhmm.

Brett Johnson [: 00:01:05

And and and it's funny how we talk about them, and it's not about the episodes. It's about the podcast itself. And you have some really you know, you follow some very successful podcast, and you have great examples of a of a what they've been doing with their you know, they build up their branding so well Mhmm. That they're not even relying on episodes per se. They just have this following that they Yeah. Love the guests or the I should say the cohost Mhmm. And what they do with them. Mhmm.

Brett Johnson [: 00:01:34

I I I I'll let you jump in and and, you know, kinda give a couple of examples what you're talking about here.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:01:38

Yeah. Yeah. So we're just talking about this idea that your podcast isn't just a show. And I think when you if you can treat your podcast like a brand, like a whole business in itself, that the the work that you're doing in the episodes, outside of the episodes really becomes more intentional, and it helps you to build your audience and be able to, grow more. Right? So I was using the example of crime junkies, which as you all know, I love true crime. But I was talking about how I think what makes crime junkies or even Payne Lindsay with Tenderfoot TV different than some of the other true crime, podcasts out there is that they're not just, you know, sensationalizing crimes. They are actually using their resources, their community, their connections to try to solve these crimes, and they're giving their community action items. You know? After every episode on crime junkies, they tell people if you have information, if you, you know, know where this person was in 1963 in Birmingham, Alabama, call this number and share the information that you have.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:03:01

And and they're just really intentional about making sure that if they're telling a story about a crime that has not been solved, that they're giving their audience a call to action. And that has led to Crime Junkies having a a paid community. I think they have a Patreon, which is like a a paywall type of community where you can get in and get exclusive access to, more deeper information about the podcast. I know they have an app where you can actually listen to podcast episodes within the app. And so if they're talking about, you know, Sarah lived three miles from the school, They're they're showing a map as they're talking about that so you can see what that distance really looked like. And if and if the person had to walk through a field, you're gonna be able to see that to really start to get a visual of what they're talking about. And so it's it's going beyond the show. And because of that, both of the hosts have written books, and they have helped to, bring up other up and coming podcasters to host their shows on their network.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:04:08

They do tours for live episodes of their podcast and really have become an entire brand. And it's not just about what they talk about on the show, but they're actually, actually, doing the work of you know, if we care about the stories that we're telling, we're not just saying that on the podcast, but it shows up in our actions outside of every episode.

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:34

Yeah. I think what's interesting is that, you know, we get to talk about the success of these podcasts now. And if you're looking to emulate or to learn something from this, you do need to go back in history and see where they began because this takes time.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:04:48

Yes.

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:48

This was not, for the most part, not an overnight success. It was strategically and sometimes you accidentally fall into a success formula. They're like, wow. That worked.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:04:58

Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:04:59

And you go with it. But I think the big part is is this strategy is that when you begin to create your content for whatever kind of podcast you're doing Mhmm. Is what is the end result? What is the strategy? And it's not just filling out the podcast description for Apple Podcasts.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:05:17

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:05:18

It goes way beyond that. Yes. That's something you need to do, but that that podcast description should be coming from something that you and your cohost or you yourself have just really researched out in regards to what do you want to accomplish? What does each episode do to build up your podcast brand that it starts to build over time? The people, when they hear the title of your podcast, you know exactly what it is. You don't have to have episode episodes to support it. It's that they know this is what this podcast is and what it does and what the cohost or the co or the host does do.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:05:55

Yeah. And I think to that point, you also have to be careful with this approach. Because when I think about the very first podcast I ever listened to was Serial, and they were helping to solve, there was a kid named Adnan Saeed who was accused of murdering his girlfriend. And, fast forward, they ended up, you know, helping him to, you know, get out of prison or whatever. And so what I think where they went wrong is that the entire podcast was so focused on that case

Brett Johnson [: 00:06:40

Yeah.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:06:40

That once they tried to move on, people weren't interested Yeah. Because they were interested in that case. And so I think as you are creating your brand, really focusing on so what Payne Lindsay kinda did differently was that in his podcast, Up and Vanished, it was really focused on, Tara and solving that case. And when he wanted to talk about another topic, he created another podcast. Mhmm. Still similar concepts, but talking about something slightly different. And but people followed because they loved what he did on the other podcast. And he was able to still come back to the original up and vanished and talk about someone different, but it took a little bit of pivoting to come back around.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:07:29

Whereas maybe Crime Junkies, every single episode has always been about different cases, and they might do some episodes where they're, like, following up. So I think you just gotta be careful as you are, you know, creating, brands with your podcast. You know? Also, not thinking that maybe this podcast you're doing now isn't the end game for you. Maybe this is just one podcast, and it's gonna be focused on this one thing, and you're just all in, and then maybe you do switch to to something else. So I think there's definitely a strategy behind when you're really thinking about creating a brand with your podcast and where you wanna go, and making sure that as you're bringing people in, if they're coming in for this one thing, if you're okay with that and you wanna just offer that, fine. But if you, can foresee yourself wanting to, you know, have a little more variety, then you gotta make sure you're bringing that in. Because if people get stuck on this one thing, once you're done with that thing, they might leave. And so finding a way to keep the audience engaged with the brand is really important too.

Brett Johnson [: 00:08:46

Yeah. I think, and a little bit of this too is Serial got caught flat footed on the success. They didn't realize and and you can't really plan for that. You don't know what was their definition of success. Who knows? Only interviews with them would would would you would find that out. But it was a not it wasn't it was not an overnight success, but just the story itself, how they put it together became a hallmark of the one of the most referenced podcast in podcast history

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:09:16

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Brett Johnson [: 00:09:17

Because of what it did, and it also was that surprise hit. Mhmm. They were not expecting that. So it's that, you and that can happen to anybody. So it's that what are the contingencies? What what what's the game plan? Yeah. Also, at the same time, maybe reaching out to listeners and kinda going, okay. If we continue on with this Mhmm. We're thinking about changing the name or going with its totally different podcast, whatever the case might be.

Brett Johnson [: 00:09:44

Yeah. Whether that you know, whether Cyril's next investigative report was a a mistake to keep it under the Cyril name or not, maybe. Mhmm. We'll never really know Right. Because that's what they did, or the next story that they covered wasn't as intriguing.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:09:58

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:09:59

You know? And because that that's a that was a hard one to follow-up on. You know, when you think about it, that was just Yeah. Huge. And how do you follow-up on a success like that in it in it that second one that was, based in Detroit, I forget the story line, but it was a Detroit based one, it just didn't have the luster.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:10:16

Yeah. It did it didn't have that same energy that was behind, the original case with Adnan. And I think a lot of people had so many questions about that case. There were so many things that didn't make sense. It's like, woah. Did he do it? Didn't he do it? Was it the friend? Did the fuck you know? I mean, there were so many.

Brett Johnson [: 00:10:38

So Every episode changed your mind. Yeah. Basically, it really did if you think about it. It's like, wait a minute. Last time I listened to this, I was sure he wasn't. Now Right. They've got doubt in my head again. Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:10:49

So it's Right. Yeah. It was you know? And and they did a good I think they did a good coverage of the second story line, but it just didn't have that, have that development, I guess, you could say comparatively. So, you know, the the the the it it was interesting how that developed up. And I think Mhmm. You know, we need to take lessons from that. And I think it's just that not one off looking at it going, okay. Great for them.

Brett Johnson [: 00:11:15

But it's really taking them look at, okay. What are you prepared to do? What are you preparing for? Mhmm. And what you put out there, again, comes back to how are you're supporting your your main concept of what you're doing with your podcast

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:11:28

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:11:29

And keeping true to yourself a strat plan

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:11:31

Mhmm.

Brett Johnson [: 00:11:31

Of what you're doing. And and I know a lot of people don't walk a lot of podcasters don't walk into it that seriously.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:11:36

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:11:38

But you should because you never know when something is going to happen that it's just that, wow, it takes off. Whatever scale it might be. I mean Mhmm. I'm not necessarily talking about the Joe Rogan successes of the world or anything like that, but it just could be you weren't you were happy with, you know, maybe a 2,000 followers, and all of a sudden you're getting fifty, sixty, 70 thousand followers. Well, that's a different story.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:12:01

Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:12:02

Completely different story, and you've gotta work those things out to know, okay, what's working, what's not, how does this, you know, marketing of the podcast Mhmm. Work versus really as an industry, we focus so much on that hamster wheel churning of promoting episodes, episodes, episodes where where the listener you're asking the listener to follow, but it's that but why? I just really like that last episode. I don't need anymore. Right. You've not built up your brand of who you are, your team, or whatever it might be, whatever you're offering.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:12:37

Community. I I think that's the difference between some of even the podcast that we've mentioned today, I think one thing that they all did really well, some continue to do is building that community around the podcast. I mean, you couldn't I never even heard a podcast until Serial. That's what made me really start listening because everyone was talking about it. So it's like, well, I wanna know I wanna be a part of this conversation to know what's going on. So I think they all did a great job with with building community, and you could tell with all these podcasts that they were doing this because they were passionate about what they were talking about. Mhmm. You know, podcasting is a hot topic, and a lot of people, you know, feel like it's just an easy thing that you can start doing, and you're gonna have all these downloads and all these subscribers, and you're gonna make money.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:13:37

But it really does take a lot of time, commitment, consistency, and being passionate about what you're talking about. You know, if you're not excited, about, you know, gardening and you start a gardening podcast, like, it's gonna show up in the work. It's gonna show up in the consistency. And so, you know, I think about The Daily, which is a a podcast I listen to pretty much every day for from The New York Times. And, I mean, they're recording at, like, three, 04:00 in the morning to make sure that episode comes out at six or 7AM whenever it drops, and they have to do that Monday through Friday. So, you know, if you're starting something, if you are not ready or willing to be committed to it, then, you know, if this is just a hobby and it's just something fun that you do, that's also okay. But if if we're really talking about starting podcast to help us grow our business or these are our businesses, then we really gotta look at some of these podcasts that we talked about and kinda look at their, blueprint that they've put out for us and see why they have been able to be successful. I mean and and most I mean, I think all the ones that we talked about didn't start off like a Joe Rogan where they were already famous.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:15:04

Like, these are regular people who started a thing, and and they built up community. I mean, I can think of, you know, one thing with Payne Lindsay during his first up and vanished episode was that he would randomly talk about his grandma and her cookies. She would bake him cookies when he was gonna be traveling to, you know, to do the work. And it became a thing, where people would ask, like, okay. So how can we try your grandma's cookies? Or if you're gonna, you know, come and interview me, you gotta bring me some of your grandma's cookies. So, like, even something as simple as that. Right? Yeah. I think Serial might have done this.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:15:48

I know Up and Vanished did too where they would have episodes dedicated to, people have been listening and they have questions. And they would let people call in and kinda share what their questions were, and they would spend an episode answering the questions about the case. That was a great way too for them to get the listeners involved and kinda build that community, people hearing their their question being answered, which a lot of, podcast out there now do that where they might have listener letters or Yeah. They might have people call in. So that's another great way, I think, that a lot of these, podcasts have been able to to build a loyal fan base.

Brett Johnson [: 00:16:32

Yeah. Well and and what we've really not talked about as well too, and and we don't have to explore that. But as as we get toward the end of this episode, I wanna reinforce that most of these podcasters are not doing it alone. They have a team. They they they're behind the scenes. They may mention them at the end, you know, that by name, that sort of thing.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:16:50

Yeah.

Brett Johnson [: 00:16:50

But it's that, you may look at the success they have and kinda go, I can't do that alone. And they're not. They're not doing it alone. And that and that's kinda where your services and my services come into play that we can be a support team for that. If if nothing else, throwing off ideas or understanding, okay. We have this. What's the best way to market it?

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:17:11

Right.

Brett Johnson [: 00:17:12

And and just flush out ideas from Mhmm. From other end other, people that are in the industry or have a, a a a a love of it, and they can give these examples. So, yeah, I mean so let let's say the listener does have you know, they they they want that team member. Let's end with how can they get ahold of you, you know, in regards to just kind of talking about this a little bit more.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:17:35

Yes. You can go to my website, tjecommunications.com, and schedule a free consultation. I would love to be a part of your podcast team. So, yeah, you can schedule some free time with me anytime.

Brett Johnson [: 00:17:50

Yeah. And and same with me too. You know, I if you go through me and if it depends on what the need is, I'm gonna bring in Tanisha along or any of the circle of experts along as well too. You can get me on my scheduling calendar at mypodcastguy.com. Thanks again for joining me, Tonnisha. This has been great.

Tonnisha English-Amamoo [: 00:18:06

Yeah. Of course. Thank you for having me.